And the feedback loop is all about asking questions back, and asking someone to paraphrase what was said so we ensure they understand it. I think the most important thing is knowing and being willing to change. Im sure he loves me very much. All this because shes afraid shell speed on a 20 minute trip in farmland Iowa. Your ex doesnt need your empathy. I think maybe your ex and I arent so different. Most of it I can. Im laughing at my own ice cream shit jokes!. Its a mindset Ive never been able to get. He would take credit for other peoples work. Which, of course, does absolutely nothing but make them more defensive and make it seem like Im the one with the problem. Same thing with housework. But with Steve, Bill and Dick? A plastic dish award for comment of the week? It was frustrating, because to me it was as clear as seeing the sun, but he was the blind man. If I could figure out why this app keeps posting my comment from the sight I dont use anymore (and cant delete because Im afraid delete the wrong thing) and actually post from my real blog (ifonlymommy) you could read and see why I can be a little defensive. Not an outrageous difference, this isnt about you suffering, but something that can be considered meaningful amends. Great question! People pulling this kinda crap on a regular basis REALLY dont seem to get how it impacts those around them. To me, it felt unfair forher to be mad about whatever the thing was. Shes already shown so much growth and its my job to help her celebrate her Bill personality (because especially for women prioritizing your needs is healthy) with adding more focus on others needs and to become a mature Jason. While I was struggling to perform basic life tasks, only two things helpedfamily and friends who knew me BEFORE I was married because we had a pre-existing relationship to fall back on, and other people who had gone through divorce. I think everyone would agree that you should love your children unconditionally. You just nailed the key takeaway from my marriages nadir: my wife not only can leave me, but she is 100% prepared to if I start serving up shit patties on the grill again. What really needs to happen, if you are to really be a top notch husband is the hear about the disrespect when she is still talking about the dishes. Almost 4 years ago my wife pretty much walked out on our marriage. When you use words that arent actual words, it hurts me. Hey Mike, Ive been in your spot with someone who was totally checked out and was pretty much staying for the kids while being unwilling to do anything to improve the situation. When I think of marriage as life-long construct, a life-long process of learning and evolution, then one of the most critical takeaways for me is it will be much easier for Steve than it will be for Bill or Dick to become a Jason. For example Ive noticed Ive tried to engage you in conversation but youre not giving me eye contact. Interestingly (and perhaps sadly), nothing really made a difference until I said screw it Im out. This has really been a fascinating discussion. I want my kids to grow up not only with a stable household, but with parents who love each other and reflect that in their interactions every day. Most women who are not from completely dysfunctional backgrounds are healthy enough to recognize and avoid a truly abusive man who treats them like crap. The more shame you have, the harder it is to do that. Great suggestions! I have to be honest though, my knee jerk reaction to showing them were serious- like moving into the spare bedroom, or leaving the table (which I would do in a heartbeat if someone called me a derogatory name, and I wouldnt even consider paying for my own meal- shoot yeah, Ill stick him with the check in that case.) So we get married to Steve, who we thought would give us burgers, but what hes giving on sure tastes like a shit sandwich. When this happens, I feel like you are telling me that watching TV is more important to you than I am. By the way this principle is from Brent Atkinsons work based on Gottmans and other marriage research. Simply said, that kind of uninentional clueless husband is of the innocent kind. And its possible that Bill would change. Its a big deal. And now, I truly think she does want to be in the marriage. Youre upset because it seems exactly like when you ask me to grab three things at the store, and I tell you I will, but then I only grab two of them. So let me add a couple of characters to the office to make it clearer. Because I find their lack of accountability as either a result of stupidity of unwillingness to face reality. I probably could also do it, without it being a problem, if I was in a good mood and needed a favour from a grumpy customer service person or something like that, and then I could roll my eyes and laugh afterwards). My wife, at least from my perspective, never really did move beyond the so-called talking about the dishes level into the richer discussion of how and why it was affecting her emotionally in a way it wasnt for me. And I think it would also help if each person, or even if just one person, gets a handle on their emotions on their own, regardless of what their partner is doing (part of differentiation, that Lisa G and I mention sometimes, see David Schnarch if youre interested). When we have been hurt and failed by our partner we stop seeing our partners as people, as individuals. But in the absence of information? That simple. Do you think you have a tendency to gaslight effect her? Im speaking more in generalities- in concepts. In fact, I believe you left many clues in your post as to his knowing complicity in what he was doing. If Steve has ADHD and everybody knows it, then its just a matter of trying to figure out the best way to manage detailed tasks in the best way possible. Because of nature/nurture, women are not good at setting boundaries over small things choosing to keep the peace over just adapting. I think thats why like-minded people band together in all the observable ways like-minded people seek each other out. And let me just say I am far from having figured out all this stuff so this is just my random musings on what I think makes sense. Theology matters! And one person should never be the one always accommodating the other. The bitter red pill is hard to swallow Travis, I know. Im too proud to admit what serious damage he has done to me and allowed others to do to me because he wasting really in my life watching out for me. If anything Im the one who is unappreciated. And it really is all a couple needs to ignore in order for divorce (or a MISERABLE marriage) to be a virtual certainty. And yet, here I am thirty years later. Add into that she is beaten down, hurt, angry, exhausted and a shell of who she wants to be at this point. The gaslight effect thing drives me crazy even in a kid. Theres no waiting for it to resolve on its own. In very large part, Im with you, Donkey (and, presumably, Lisa) that, by and large, wives are far more adept at accepting influence from their husbands than the other way aroundwith one key exception that I see cut across literally every single marriage I have ever seendecorating the house. Empathy can be like a survival skill for women. The ones who screw you over and dont know it (your flavor of ice cream) and the ones who screw you over but do know it (still ice cream but cookie dough not chocolate). 7. I was absolutely crushed. It went well and nothing was found that was said to be stolen. The thing that is sticking out to me is that it was cited that people come in for a goal to control their anxiety and depression, but these goals turn into interpersonal goals (I want to learn how to communicate better, I want to learn how to empathize better) after being in the group for a little while. His words or his actions? That is what great husbands do and the kind of husband I hope I can be someday. None of that is a point of interest to me in the discussion of husband-wife dynamics. | So why do you keep doing it?, Husband: Because I actively despise you and want to bring misery to your life. I am a nurse, and Im training to be a psych NP. And I believe thats what we are doing as we comment. But then I could also hear him saying No without any further explanation. And this is why my continued commentary has quickly dried up here today. Or at least wont work as badly. FSM, Lisa Gottman said, Thats what I did wrong in my marriage. And to whatever extent, however subconsciously, your kids empathize or identify themselves with their other parent (maybe even in the future), youre hurting that part of them by not treating their other parent well.. Make any sense? Great input, Lissy. Thats a special kind of ironic shit there, that I am Dance Mom if you knew me. I just have to be clear that of course the rest of your marriage shouldnt be about only you being a good spouse. So that is the difference, with both nice normal shitty husbands, I get equally screwed over. Too many years of disappointment. They say that everyone is at least uneasy with the possibility of truly being seen as they are I know after years of working on myself that I still am. The harm of making the woman feel crazy is the same regardless if it was intentional or not. Yes Travis, I agree completely with you and Lisa here. 3. There is no gap in intention and result for Bill or Dick, so therefore, no impetus for them to ever change. The details of my divorce and marraige are a little more extreme so I dont want to get into who lacked what and how much was lacking but learning from your post that empathy was missing has really inspired me to take a new direction in how I go about healing. Why would we chose Bill who we knows gives us shit instead of Steve who insists hes giving us burgers but really is giving us shit aswell? Then I still say shame on us for contributing to the first sentence and shame on them for accepting the second sentence. I really respect that Travis, that youre willing to hear our point of view and try and absorb it. If you talk to a Divorce busting coach (they do telephone/Skype consultations I believe) they probably have many suggestions, but in any case I would suggest you show her that youre putting actions behind your words when it comes to your problems. Either way, its why I drown my sorrows in Doritos and blog comments. Im sure my ex is extremely different from you as he is surely personality disordered (whether he knows it yet or not). It is the arrogance, the self-righteousness, the pride of a man who obliviously believes he is good, that really takes its toll on women.. And I need some more of emotional intelligence like you have going on in my life! So Im hoping that kicking ideas around might help someone else not have to go through pain and I learn so much from everyones ideas here as I try and figure out what a healthy relationship looks like and how I can get me one of those delicious burgers obsess of shit sandwiches. Anonymous (30-35) OK so recently me and my boyfriend of 3 years broke up. We all should strive for effective communication, and not just communication. Here are some tips to help your child stop his or her annoying behaviors: 1. Because I chose it, and am willing to work to make it the best it can be. Turns out, when I ask him a question he feels interrogated and goes into excuse-creating mode trying to determine what answer Im looking for or what answer will cause the least amount of friction. Another one is maternal gatekeeping. But it is really easy to excuse away the other behaviors, and think oh but he didnt MEAN to do something hurtful!. But its worth sharing again wand I think if wed read this post, we may not have divorced. 4. Maybe compartmentalization is exactly what is needed (even though that feels like a betrayal to my feelings that compartmentalization is,in part, a cause of denial and continuing unhealthy patterns) in that maybe we need to spend more time seeing our partners as individuals , and really learn and appreciate the person as distinct from the role of husband/wife. Ive experienced both. I mean, the whole point of the conversation is being honest with yourself and them. That is what great husbands do and the kind of husband I hope I can be someday. The same rules apply though. We are working now with the Atkinson model which is skills based attachment style. Haha! If this doesnt shape up then, you can tell him that either he takes out the trash/negotiates another deal with you, or you will have to go to marriage counceling. He would never let my mom go through anything like that. I responded to this but accidentally put it in the thread above. The Bible talks about this. Gottmans research show that only 35 % of husbands accept influence, whereas women do it in the vast majority of heterosexual relationships. Marriage, a healthy one, than becomes one act of forgiveness after another, but before we can get to that point, we have to have enough humility to see one another as we really are, which is not always so pretty and good. Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we need to add another character to our ensemble. The bad thing about oblivious people is they dont understand that they hurt you, in my experience. Youre going to get hurt either way, but at least with the asshole youll see it coming. and I thought it was pretty wise.. 2. I have ZERO tolerance for people who are secretly and sneakily plotting to screw over their husbands or wives, and subjecting their kids and all their mutual friends and family to the horrors that can exist in those types of situations. It was not unconditional in the sense that he could crap all over me for years and my emotions would never feel the pain and destruction he was inflicting. (Until the next time: ). But I think that is backwards and wrong. But with the clueless unintentional guy, he ADDS the additional injury of the gaslight effect. Youre right I did want the practical boundaries, but the other stuff was good too. The random verses that some people quote to say that men are designed by God to be leaders and women followers, the idea that men are to be respected and women loved completely miss the point of the whole thing. Going off that example, do you have any ideas as to how we could set effective boundaries with a Steve child to prevent ourselves from being forced to eat a similar kind of shit sandwich in the future? Does it have to do with us or something else? And I just cant deal with the cognitive dissidence of saying stuff I dont believe to get them to be less defensive. Mostly all the stuff I have done wrong :). So we can be both independent and interdependent in healthy ways. Your wife will start noticing this. But, in a general sense, is it EASY? Probably the same reason nurses dont go to the doctor when theyre sick. So when a woman becomes angry enough to do something she knows full well will get under a mans skin, the last thing shell ever do is admit that she knew what she was about, and she did it specifically to hurt him. So this is where women recognize/label the selfishneSs, the meanness, the pride and arrogance inherent in our shitty husbands failings to accomodate us. The only differences are to what level their faults take them and to what level do they face it and own it after their faults hurt another person. Fundamentally different. The woman who really wants that is as rare as the psychopath that has no other interest in a wife beyond hurting her and destroying her. So I place huge value on trying to really get to the root of an issue, and then trying to do something about it. INTENT is a huge deal to me. Since it doesnt, he wont work out a win-win solution. I am feeling pretty shitty about myself. I think that was brilliant. But thanks for the link for the David Brooks piece. If a person truly understands that Behavior X is causing legit pain for their partner, the it was an accident! excuse is only good the first time, possibly the second. For instance: If you fought about housework, draft up 3 different suggestions to how you could divide the housework, and the mental responsibility for the housework, fairly between the two of you. Because its not about the trash or the dishes. Im all for men having enough self-esteem to face it and fix it if they are guilty of emotional unintelligence and its damaged their relationship and lets be frank if it has then it has damaged their lover. this is really the crux of this blog. Ive been with my boyfriend for 4 years, we have a child together now and he is 2. Im with you Deanna, Im getting no comfort and Im assigning no justification to the abuser who takes zero responsibility and has never repaired anything. As long as accountability and reasonable efforts are being made to minimize harm to others because of these tendencies, Im good. And thats why the cops didnt get called. Then two weeks after he went on a date with a girl he knows I can't stand. It just happens. Youre right we need to treat people as complex individuals with a variety of responses depending on the situation. Keep in mind though that Im not a parent, so I dont really know things first hand. This point of given a choice, Bill is superior to Steve sticks in my craw, yes. And we meet someone where those needs/wants match up enough that pursuit of our own needs feels fulfilling for both parties. Heres the link for the summary I posted in the other comment with a summary of Stan Tatkins Wired For Love book. Men are still considered privileged over women in our society so we can make fun of them being idiots in a way that would come across as cruel to women. I forgot to mention I am a big fan of EMDR. I cant talk to my husband because he refuses to hear he does something that hurts me. Some balance is required you know? . Then I fell apart emotionally, spiritually and physically and I was a definitely part of the problem for a time, a huge part. And people could/should maybe also set a time limit for the conversation, like half an hour and then its cool off time and the conflict doesnt get discussed until next week.It probably will be tough going and slow and frustrating at first, so like Zombiedrew has mentioned before, I think its very important to really strive to notice and celebrate any small victories and progress. So I read Terry Real and David Scnarch and Ellyn Bader and Pete Pearson. I wrote you one but its below maybe? I wonder if you get told you think too much? Speaking in the grossest of stereotypes, only because this revelatory discussion makes me wonder if theres some kernel of truth to it, I wonder if the perspectives being debated here factor into why women always go for the bad boy and men always go for the dumb bimbo. And it pushes her responsibility of emotional regulation on him. You need to prove to her that you are committed to things really changing. Clueless unintentional husbands good intentions do NOT get any free passes for the harm caused. People accuse me all the time of being too theoretical. It might not be a worthwhile exercise for someone who didnt care either way. Thats what gets me so much of the time when the nice guys, several of whom really are nice guys give credit to the majority of guys as also nice but clueless and then they draw a kind of line in the sand to say abuse is a whole different category. Haha. If you would indulge me one little accuracy thing I would point to Disney Princess movies. Youre getting pretty good at this whole advice thing youve got going on. I could use some help. To me thats bad news, and a relationship people need to get out of asap. Now that he has forcibly rejected that on a permanent basis its good that I can recognize what he has done over all the years of the marriage and in the end with his ultimate betrayal. Learn More Here. This is the #1 thing that my ex did. If we can admit our mistakes, admit our misconceptions, admit our failures its so much easy to empathize with others. Both my mother and older sister are Steves. But I think a husband having the light bulb go off can have a greater impact on a marriage or long-term relationship, than the other way around. Bear with me as Im not the best at getting my thoughts in written format. Travis, the Gottman statistic of 35% of men accepting influence represents the Jasons. And by showing interest in that thing Im really just showing interest in her. My take, Hank truly believed that what he was telling Skyler was what was best for her. So absurd. Smh Fool me twice there is no way in hell she is going to get fooled again. Thats asking to be damaged further. My life changed profoundly and positively once I was able to see how the breakdown occurs. Donkey, you and I are on the same wavelength here. At least, they do until it is over, when they. What they want, and what makes them happy is what matters. Im not trying to justify anyones actions, I am just trying to assign a rationale. 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